Episode 1: Discussing the Daredevil cancellation, Disney vs. Netflix streaming wars, and the future of Daredevil
In our inaugural episode of #TalkDaredevil, we take a look back at the Daredevil cancellation, discuss the changing landscape of streaming between Disney and Netflix, and the potential future of Daredevil at Marvel. We also give an update on the current state of the #SaveDaredevil campaign.
SHOW NOTES
Welcome to the first episode of an experiment we’re calling #TalkDaredevil! In this episode, team members Christine, Phyllis, and Sam dig into a wide ranging discussion about the following topics:
Revisiting the circumstances (and rumors!) surrounding the Daredevil cancellation (4:10)
A look at Netflix cancellations and specifically why they cancel so many shows by season 3 (7:11)
The Netflix non-compete, Daredevil’s 2 year moratorium, and the value of Marvel IP (12:57)
Disney didn’t cancel Daredevil plus a closer look at the Disney vs Netflix battle in the overall streaming wars (16:25)
How this landscape has influenced the #SaveDaredevil campaign (20:20)
How Daredevil has stayed prominent in the fandom conversation (23:11)
Assessing the effects of COVID-19 on the #SaveDaredevil campaign (26:20)
Corporate shake-ups at Marvel and its impact on our strategies (28:03)
What’s coming up for #SaveDaredevil (34:34)
Have some thoughts or questions you’d like to hear us discuss in an upcoming episode? Send us an email at contact@savedaredevil.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving us a rating + review on your podcast platform of choice!
LINKS
Don’t Expect ‘The Defenders’ on Disney Streaming Service Any Time Soon (Variety article regarding the 2 year moratorium for the Defenders’ series)
Feeling The Churn: Why Netflix Cancels Shows After A Couple Of Seasons & Why They Can’t Move To New Homes (Deadline article about Netflix cancellation strategy and why it gets more expensive after 3 seasons)
Marvel TV To Shut Down, Current Series Folded Into Marvel Studios
#SaveDaredevil FAQ page (Includes stats for the year by year increase of original programming on Netflix is answered in the question about viewership decline “Q: Okay but what about that article that said viewership for Daredevil S3 declined by 57%?”)
FULL TRANSCRIPT
PHYLLIS: I'm Phyllis. You may have seen me on one of the team videos, or maybe a few of the videos from Save Daredevil Con. But, yeah, I'm really excited to get talking about some Save Daredevil stuff.
SAM: And I'm Sam. You probably saw me in the Animal Crossing videos. I was the one hosting there, and also some of the meetups. Probably a lot of people know me from those.
CHRISTINE: Yeah. And people might know me from -- I was also in a panel for Save Daredevil Con. I was on the fan conversation panel talking to Kuljit from ManWithoutFear.com. And we had Emma from Daresplaining, and then we had Joshua from Jamie and Joshua Do Daredevil. So I also blog at theothermurdockpapers.com which is a blog that hasn't really been active much lately. I've spent so much time with all these lovely people from the Save Daredevil team, so that's where I spend most of my time these days. So, we're just gonna have some fun talking about, kind of, the general state of the campaign, I guess. Like, where we are right now and what happened almost two years ago and where we're heading. So, yeah, so what else can we expect from this show or this podcast going forward?
PHYLLIS: There's a few things that we're gonna have depending on how this goes. Again, as Christine said, this is kind of an experiment for us. Maybe we all kind of got bitten by the bug a little bit during the con. And now we don't mind getting together to chat a little bit more. But in addition to today kind of being about the state of the campaign, we're also going to be talking more in depth about the changes that some of you may have heard at Disney and as far as their plans in this post-COVID world with Disney+ and their other original content. We're also going to be talking really more in depth about what we have planned as we hit the two-year mark and beyond. Because, you know, a big thing that we'll get into on this conversation is, you know, we've been working towards this November 2020 deadline. And that isn't going to be the end of this campaign. That might in a way be the beginning. So we really want to have a space for us as team members on this campaign to talk a little bit more openly with the fans about what we're thinking about and what we want to do and also just share our own opinions and perspectives on this whole situation and be a part of the fan conversation, which we imagine will only get hopefully louder as we get closer to the end date of the Netflix moratorium.
CHRISTINE: Yeah, and also for anyone out there who is new to the campaign, or maybe you just finished watching Daredevil, I actually talked to a friend today who is now on episode eight of season three for the first time, and he's like “this is the best season yet!” I'm like, “Yes, I know!” But if you're in that category or maybe you watched it a couple of years ago and are kind of new to the campaign, we're hoping that this first episode is also going to be sort of a good recap of what happened back then and all the complexities involved.
PHYLLIS: Yeah. Totally.
CHRISTINE: Yeah. So, what happened? November 29th, 2018.
PHYLLIS: 2018 sounds like it was ages ago.
[laughing]
CHRISTINE: I know.
PHYLLIS: But yeah, you know, the cancellation in itself feels like it's something -- I think, you know, if you're a fan of the show and you're at all aware of the existence of this campaign, you probably knew that the show got canceled two years ago and you knew that this Save Daredevil campaign sprung up in the wake of that. But something that maybe the casual majority doesn't know, or isn't as aware of, are the circumstances of the cancellation. So this could be a good time for us to sort of break that down, and recap it even, a little bit for fans who might not have been as plugged in over these last nearly two years.
CHRISTINE: Yeah, and there was a lot of early ... I mean, people had all kinds of ideas that Disney did it, and Disney did it because Disney+ was coming, and all kinds of just misunderstanding around them, [around] what happened.
SAM: Well, that kind of started with Iron Fist to be honest, because back then people were, “Oh well, I don't think … [it] isn't that good.” But then Luke Cage got cancelled, and I remember there were a lot of rumors going around like, “Oh, they are going to make Daughters of the Dragon,” or “They are going to make Heroes for Hire.” And people were expecting the cancellation to lead to something else. Not like, “Oh, they’re cancelled and that's it.”
PHYLLIS: Yeah. Yeah. And the fact that Luke Cage got cancelled on the day Daredevil season three premiered was very, like, “Ooh, what's going on?” So, yeah, the narrative at that time, especially with two shows cancelled very closely together right before, and as, Daredevil was premiering, I think set into motion a lot of fandom conspiracy theories and rumors. Over top of that there was this whole dynamic with Disney pushing into the streaming wars with Disney+, [and the] very well-known dissolution of that agreement between Disney and Netflix to distribute their movies, which kind of got lumped into the whole Marvel TV thing. So, you know, we have a whole … If you're new to us and you haven't been to our website, we have a whole excellent FAQ page that touches on a lot of this at SaveDaredevil.com/FAQ. But yeah, I think it's a little wild still, sitting here and thinking back to it and thinking about it, just how complicated the whole thing is. And a lot of it has to do with Netflix, I think,
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: creating a complicated situation for shows that end up getting cancelled on their platform.
CHRISTINE: Yeah, they've really gone … You know, I've had Netflix since the very beginning, or at least since it first came to … I'm in Sweden. And as soon as it came to Sweden, I got Netflix.
PHYLLIS: Yeah.
CHRISTINE: Back when I lived in the States a few years ago, I was one of those who had, when Netflix was something that was ... you got a DVD, like a subscription kind of thing.
PHYLLIS: Oh yeah. Uh huh. Same.
CHRISTINE: So I remember Netflix from way back when. But I remember, in the beginning, they were almost ... I mean, right now they're in a situation where a lot of shows are being cancelled, and a lot of shows are being cancelled in ways that a lot of fans are like, “Whoa, this is super premature. It's happening on a cliffhanger.” We can get into why that is and so on, but I remember in the beginning, it was almost the opposite. Like, they would just renew everything, even the stuff that I thought wasn't all that great. So I mean, it's normal for obviously a streamer or even traditional TV to occasionally cancel a show. But they wouldn't cancel anything. And then they went from that to canceling a lot of stuff, which is where we are right now, and it's kind of … But in that sense, three apparently seems to be the magic number for how many seasons we're allowed on Netflix, we've been told.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, it really has to do a lot with Netflix … At a certain point, I would probably say maybe 2017/2018 felt like this inflection point for Netflix, because if you … I know this is on our website somewhere, written down, but just the number of original series that premiered from 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, the way it just multiplied and skyrocketed up [is] insane if you compare the amount of programming they had in 2015 compared to what they launched in 2019. And part of the reason why their business model has now shifted from “Let's renew everything, no matter what it is” to “OK, we're gonna start killing all your darlings,” is because there is now this shift because they have … In their own, you know … They were smart in that they were the first ones out there, and they got their hooks into this area of the industry that a lot of the studios and networks are now playing catch-up on. But, you know, they are the leader now. They get to call the shots. And one of the things that they didn't get to call the shots on before, necessarily, was owning all of their own content. And now there's a shift from working with outside studios [and] third-party networks to help distribute their content to producing as much as their own IP in-house that they can own just forever essentially. And so when you see shows like Anne with an E, One Day at a Time, Daredevil, all these shows got cancelled at the three season mark because within the Netflix business model, once you hit season three, you need to start paying. I think it's more back ends. I don't want to speak too much about this, because I can't remember the specifics, but maybe Sam --
SAM: I think I do. I think it was Deadline that reported about this, if I remember correctly. So things like the Netflix model allows people like the producers to make really cheap seasons one, two and three. But in each season, the quantity they are paying the producers, the actors, and the whole team is increasing. But from season one to season two the increase is not as big. And from season two to season three is just moderate. But after season three, this is when the premiums really kick in and they have to pay all the actors and everybody much more. So this is when it becomes almost unsustainable for them to have these shows, because the amount of people they need them to watch just becomes too crazy. So sometimes I remember seeing like, “Oh, they didn't have enough viewers.” But the thing is not like, “Oh, how many people are watching it,” but also how many people they need to watch it in order to renew this. So it's not like nobody's watching it. It's just the amount of money they need to make a season four, let's say, is too crazy for them to continue. And it makes more sense for Netflix just to cancel it and start something new that is way cheaper.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, and the other thing to piggyback off that is that Netflix, unlike a traditional network that's driven by advertisers, they are driven by new subscribers. So that thinking leads to, “Well, a show with more seasons that is older and maybe not of the zeitgeist is just not going to draw in as many new subscribers as the new shiny thing that we can push out and promote and do it more cheaply, et cetera.” So, you know, I understand the economics of it, but also it's just kind of a tough time to be a fan of TV, especially if the TV is on Netflix. You know, the other thing that, to kind of go back to the cancellation thing, another thing that we've learned is very traditional in the context of a Netflix cancellation are the non-competes.
CHRISTINE: Right.
PHYLLIS: Pretty much every show that we've read about having been cancelled by Netflix, they haven't been able to get a buyer for their show, not in the way that if you've got a show canceled at CBS, maybe you could shop it to a different network. Netflix just won't let you sell your show because they own those rights, both the rights of the show and then the rights of the distribution, which makes it obviously very difficult for any show to maintain enough momentum to go to a new platform or to a new network and then be able to continue the story. It's no surprise that out of all the cancelled shows, you've only ever heard of one show, which I believe is One Day at a Time, having gotten picked up again, and only after a lot of struggling and fighting with Netflix.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: But this is like ... You said Netflix owns the shows and the distribution rights, but that's only for the Netflix-produced shows.
PHYLLIS: Yes. Yeah. That’s right.
SAM: Not for stuff like this third-party, like is the case of Daredevil
PHYLLIS: Yeah.
SAM: or a lot of other stuff.
CHRISTINE: Yeah, it's a little bit different with Daredevil, which puts us in a kind of particular situation where, of course, they don't own the IP because Marvel owns the IP. But what would you say to people who are saying (because we hear this a lot) that, “No, Netflix owns the shows, the Marvel shows”?
PHYLLIS: Yeah, Netflix doesn’t own the shows.
CHRISTINE: No, they don’t. Yeah.
PHYLLIS: Yeah.
SAM: They have distribution rights,
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: and that's what it is. It's a very different thing. To be specific, they have the streaming distribution rights. We actually don't know if Netflix has, for example, the linear TV distribution rights. Those are pretty much --
PHYLLIS: Linear TV being your traditional broadcast and cable networks.
SAM: Mm-hm.
PHYLLIS: And also, what they do … So, where the non-compete comes in for Daredevil is essentially Netflix has a moratorium on the usage of the IP, so this is a very interesting situation because Marvel IP is extremely valuable. SAM: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: There's a reason why Sony will literally never let go of the IP that they have, because that stuff makes a lot of money for them. And so, unlike maybe a traditional non-compete, in this situation Disney/Marvel [is] just not allowed to use those characters. They're not allowed to use their own IP, essentially, in anything that's not a Netflix production for two years. So when you hear us talk about two-year moratoriums, or a two-year cooling period, that's specifically what we're talking about. That was something that was brought into light pretty soon after the cancellation. In December, I think. It was in a Variety article. But yeah, we sort of knew from those early days like, OK, there is a very clear contractual ticking clock, which is why … We can talk about this a little bit more in depth, too, but just how that has affected how we chose to run the campaign, and how we ran it since.
CHRISTINE: OK, so we've talked a lot about what Netflix is doing and what their reasoning is and everything, but what about Disney? Did they play any part in the cancellation? That's what a lot of people are saying, and we're saying, “No that's not how it was.” So, what was it like?
PHYLLIS: Sam, I know you have thoughts.
SAM: Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about this, because this is a very complicated issue, because obviously Disney is a competitor of Netflix right now and they announced that. And obviously there's going to be bad waters between both sides, but the thing is that back in 2018 when Disney announced their plans with Disney+ and to take away the movies and everything, Netflix actually renewed some of the shows. They announced a new season for The Punisher, they announced a new season for Jessica Jones and they were, from what we know, what has been said, they were in talks about a new season with Luke Cage, and that's when things seem to have gone south. I don't know what that was about. None of us probably will ever know what that was about. But for me, if Disney (really Disney+) was a major issue for Netflix at that point, they would have just cancelled all the shows back when they announced Disney+, not almost a year after.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, that's true.
SAM: And for Disney, it also makes no sense in my opinion, because right now, they can't use the characters. They are not getting anything from [those] IPs, and whatever you say, these are still their IPs, and if people were watching it [on] Netflix, that also benefits them.
CHRISTINE: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people are thinking that it was sort of like, “Oh no, it was canceled because it was going to be automatically moved to Disney+ and everything.”
SAM: Mm-hm.
CHRISTINE: And, of course, that's not the case. But on the other hand, like you mentioned with Disney+ being announced, a lot of things changed in the streaming media landscape between the time when these shows were first announced back in, what, 2014? Maybe it was even earlier than that. Anyway, Daredevil debuted in 2015, and then between then and 2018, a lot of things happened. But at the same time, everyone who’s been speaking about this [has] been really both on, honestly, the Netflix side AND the Disney/Marvel side, clear that the cancellation decision is, at the end of the day, that's going to be Netflix.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, I think it's helpful for people to remember that, in this equation, Netflix is the network. So, just like a show is on ABC or Fox or NBC, the network is the one that decides whether or not they're going to renew. So, it was the same situation with Netflix, and you know, for the longest time there was still no reason for them to not continue greenlighting a show that was using very valuable IP and still very popular with a large chunk of their viewing audience. So, you know, now we're here where we are.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: Yeah, but this is really such a messy situation with everything. Like, we really don't know what happened there, like what was [really the] driving force to cancel all these shows. Maybe it was … We suspect it was money because of the three seasons mark, right? But I also know back then there were rumors that maybe they were in discussions with Disney, so I think ultimately what happened with these shows is just the streaming war happened.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: It just wasn't profitable, neither for Netflix nor Disney, to continue on the agreement they had, and none of the [parties] would, you know, agree on something new.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, and unfortunately, you know, the Marvel TV universe on Netflix was collateral damage in corporate streaming wars.
SAM: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: But yeah, I know we've kind of gone into a long explanation of all that, but it really lays the foundation for everything that we've chosen to do as a campaign. That’s a big reason why we've always pushed that two-year mantra, and why we've made the choices that we've made. Because, again, we were never a traditional save-our-show campaign. You know, a lot of save-our-show campaigns … We've been able to connect to a few really great ones, and their fight was very brief or they kind of worked to a point where the answer was very clear that there was just no way of behind-the-scenes brokering, and the relationships between the studios and the networks and such just wasn't going to pan out, you know.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: In our situation, that was obviously different.
CHRISTINE: Yeah. It's been very different, and everything that's happened also on the Disney/Marvel side with Marvel Television and everything, which I guess we can get into … But like you're saying, a lot of other shows are going to know pretty soon whether it's futile or whether it's actually going to work, and of course some shows have been saved through fan campaigns. So, I mean, they really do help, but we're in a very … Like we said, it's a special situation with the two-year thing, and we've been able to do it for this long [laughs] and we'll do it for, you know, as long as it takes or as long as there's any kind of news.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, and that's kind of the thing, right? Because for us, there's just no realistic situation where we get news before the IP rights fully revert back to Marvel, right? So everything that we've really done over these nearly two years has been to really maintain interest and awareness, and just ... treading water doesn't sound like the best term for this, but you know, just to maintain some level of enthusiasm for this show until we could get to those two years. Because two years is a long time for all of us. CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: Mm-hm.
PHYLLIS: When we started this campaign back in 2018, which was like a hundred years ago,
[laughter]
PHYLLIS: it felt like it was gonna be a really long road ahead.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: Obviously though, we've gotten to this point where we are within less than three months now of [when] that due date, deadline, whatever you call it, will be up.
CHRISTINE: Right.
PHYLLIS: So at that point, anything we do after that could have a measurable impact on what Disney or Marvel decide to do, you know? We just want to make sure we're keeping Daredevil in their thoughts.
CHRISTINE: And honestly I'm impressed also by how much not just the campaign, but also interest in Daredevil, has been in the news. There are a lot of … If you're familiar with the campaign, you're also familiar with how careful we are not to put out bad information, and there's a lot of rumor-type stuff out there which [is] gonna just be confusing for all the fans, but it at least speaks to the interest there still is in this show. Just how often it's still talked about in the news, and what the future might hold and everything, and I think that's … Even when it's really just rumors, it's still kind of encouraging that there's a demand for this show which is really obvious.
SAM: Mm-hm.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, I totally agree.
SAM: And you can see that especially, like -- I'm sorry about this -- but like in comparison with the other shows. You don't hear that much about them, like, “Oh, we are going to be reviving this or that,” even with other cancelled shows. But I feel like there's a new rumor about Daredevil every other week.
[chuckling]
PHYLLIS: It's true. It’s true.
CHRISTINE: A lot of them keep being recycled every other week, too.
SAM: Yeah.
CHRISTINE: It's like, “Oh, we're back to this one again.” Yeah. We've seen them all at this point, I think.
SAM: Yeah, we have.
PHYLLIS: But you know, the rumors can be frustrating for those of us in the campaign, but at the same time, it is in its own way sort of proof that, hey, people aren't ready to let Daredevil go.
CHRISTINE: No.
SAM: It’s very encouraging.
PHYLLIS: It’s very encouraging. Obviously, people might have different opinions on how they want to see Daredevil come back, but I think there's nearly unanimous, if not just unanimous, agreement that Charlie needs to come back as Daredevil.
SAM: Yes.
PHYLLIS: Like, it makes zero sense for Marvel to bench Daredevil beyond this two-year moratorium.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: It just doesn't make any sense to the fans, it doesn't make any sense as a business decision.
SAM: Especially, like, in the middle of COVID, where they are bleeding money and you see that there is a push to get the Fox IPs they got back integrated into the bigger picture. So I don't feel like they are going to just bench also a very popular character right now. This is a moment where Disney will be like, “OK, we have to use everything we have in our arsenal and Daredevil is a powerful character.” So I don't think they will bench him for long.
CHRISTINE: Yeah. It would really make sense. I mean, of course this is coming from this campaign, and being big fans of the show and everything, of course we want to see that in our life. But even so, I do think it would be, considering all of the stalled production that we're looking at right now with COVID and everything, if they really wanted to grab something semi -- I don't want to say off-the-rack or off the shelf -- but if they wanted to quickly move into production on something that would be sort of ready to go, and is already super popular and has a big fan base, I mean hey, you know Daredevil would be perfect for that.
PHYLLIS: Oh yeah. Absolutely. That's been something interesting, kind of how 2020 … Obviously, 2020 has upended everybody's life in significant ways, but it's been interesting to see how it's impacted our campaign compared to last year. Last year, you know, if you want to get an idea of what we've done, we actually have a great page on our website at savedaredevil.com/timeline that goes through all the initiatives we've come up with and maintained through these past nearly two years. But you know, last year we were so lucky in that we were able to do a lot of stuff in person, a lot of stuff with fans, a lot of the stuff we did we could send straight to executives and offices. All of that stuff is off the table for this year. We don't know when people will be back in their office. We don't know if people will be back in their office for the remainder of 2020. So something like a writing initiative doesn't hit the same as it did last year when we knew, hey, we have addresses and we can send a box to this building and hopefully somebody will see it, you know. In this environment, we've had to pivot a lot toward going digital, doing a lot of online content versus tangible stuff, you know, in the form of meetups or in the form of letters or … But kind of on the flip side of that, the drawbacks of 2020 in [that], you know, all productions have been shut down, a lot of stuff has been stopped in its tracks, could be that silver lining for our campaign. It might be a little bit weird to say that, but it is kind of true.
CHRISTINE: So do we want to maybe mention a little bit about all the stuff that's happened at Disney/Marvel in terms of the organizational structure of those companies?
PHYLLIS: Oh yeah.
SAM: Oh, dear.
CHRISTINE: [chuckles]
PHYLLIS: In 2019, late 2019 into 2020, there were lots of shifts for Marvel and Disney. You know, obviously Disney had their big thing last year in the spring, right, where they finalized their purchase of Fox, which [was a] huge deal. That kind of reshifted the corporate umbrella and the executive chain a little bit for us, but as we went from 2019 to 2020, especially with all the cancellations of the Netflix shows and Agents of Shield coming to an end, Marvel TV basically was disbanded, which is kind of a big deal for us. And whatever was remaining of the TV operations was absorbed into Marvel Studios. We also saw Kevin Feige get promoted to Chief Creative Officer of Marvel at large, another kind of huge shift that hadn't played into our calculus before. Was it late last year? So, you know, between the overarching changes of just the dynamics of this year, plus the changes and the shifting dynamics of the corporate structure that we're dealing with with our show and our cancellation, it's been a lot to adapt to.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: I think that also has brought a lot of confusion, not only with the fandom, [but] even in the campaign. I remember we used to scratch our heads trying to figure out what's going on at Marvel [and] what's going on at Disney, because a lot of people were going in and out and there was a lot of shift, and I think that also helped with the rumors and all that because nobody knew what the hell was going on.
CHRISTINE: Yeah. We've had to update all the people we need to send stuff to at various points. So it’s like, “OK, so who's the new new boss of this?”
SAM: Oh, yeah.
CHRISTINE: And like, “Why is this person of interest for us to send something to or get in touch with?”
PHYLLIS: So many new bosses.
CHRISTINE: Yeah. So, at least I think everyone involved has kind of been getting a mini-education in how the television companies structure, or what that looks like, and how things run, and who does what and everything. So it's been illuminating. [laughs]
PHYLLIS: I know. We've become like accidental media/industry scholars almost. [laughing]
CHRISTINE: But we've always been talking about -- or very early on we kind of settled on -- [how] Disney+ obviously has this family-type programming [and] branding associated with it, and they've always been pointing that out to people that it's gonna be family-oriented, so we've been, ever since the early days, suggesting that Hulu would be a good home for Daredevil.
SAM: Maybe you want to speak a little bit about the changes and strategies we have approached, because it's been a while, right? Just in terms of planning stuff for the campaign. I don't know, I think you mentioned it already. A bit of, like, us having to figure out who was in charge of something and just being very flexible on what is coming and like, “OK, this is no longer the case. Let’s try this.”
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: I think we have been really good at doing that, too.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, I think we've had a good mix of initiatives that focused on engaging with the studios, and then initiatives that engaged with the fandom because, again, it's been this delicate balance of you just can't do everything you want to do before those two years are up. Like, we could certainly do a lot more if we wanted to, and I know that maybe some fans have wondered why we haven't done more of x, y and z. But the fact of the matter is you don't want to shoot off all this momentum at, like, the 12 month mark when you have 12 more months to go. More importantly for us, I think, a big part of why the campaign has continued for us as long as it has is because of fandom buy-in. Like, the fans have to feel like what we're doing has a purpose, that we're doing it for the right reasons, [and] that they agree with the reasons for why we're maintaining this campaign. So, if we don't engage the fans and we just worry about flooding tweets with hashtags all day, it could be … It could work for some people, but that approach has never really [rung] true for us, just because it wouldn't have maintained us for as long as the initiatives that we did get off the ground have. So there is a reason why.
CHRISTINE: Pacing is everything. Yeah.
PHYLLIS: Pacing, yeah.
CHRISTINE: Pacing really is everything because, like you said, you don't want to burn out too soon. And when you've got 24 months of stuff to do, it's like you kind of want to remain visible. You don't want the powers that be to forget about us at any point. You want to be like, “Hey, we're still here! We're still here!” But at the same time, people, including us and everybody involved, need to set a pace that's maintainable for the long haul. Otherwise you're just gonna --
PHYLLIS: Otherwise we would just all burn out. We would have all burned out at like three months, let alone 12 or 18 months. So, hopefully that's some insight for people who might wonder. And you know what? If you're listening to this and you're still wondering, you should reach out to us on social media and ask us these questions. We'd love to share more of our perspective. And again, that's why this whole experiment exists. I guess that might be a good segway to what do we have coming up immediately? Where are we at right now in August 2020? And I think, for us, it's really looking at this just-shy-of-three-month window that we have left and [we’re] really trying to use it as impactfully as we can while balancing out this reworked environment that we are dealing with, with COVID-19.
CHRISTINE: One thing we want to go back to a little bit is to get some more signatures for the petition. That's something that we had a lot of names added to in the beginning of the campaign. It's currently at, I think, 360 000 and change. It would be wonderful to get some more names there, so we're going to try and devise some targeted ads for Facebook and also take it a little bit more international, see which kinds of markets we haven't really targeted before and stuff. Daredevil has a lot of fans in a lot of countries. So we're gonna do that, and also we're doing some more international outreach, as well, and trying to look for ambassadors in different countries that we could join up with and who could help us carry this message into other language markets and everything. So, that's one thing we're doing.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, another thing that we want to try to push, obviously, with our time winding down is just getting people back on that hashtag and talking on the #SaveDaredevil hashtag, tagging Kevin Feige, Marvel Studios, Disney, [and] Hulu. We’ll probably end up announcing something after this goes up, but definitely before we actually get it started, just like a monthly hashtag party. We're not too worried about trending, but we really want to get people back in the habit of making conversation and making their voices heard so that by the time we do hit November 29, 2020, we want people to be as loud as possible. So if you're hearing this now, the rough plan is to be posting on the 29th of the month until we get to November 29th so keep that in mind. In addition to that, we don't want to give up on all the fan engagement that we've done a really good job with. Hopefully you were around when we did Save Daredevil Con back in July, and if you [weren’t], all that content can be found on our YouTube channel and through our website. But with New York Comic Con going virtual (just as San Diego did) in October, hopefully we'll be able to pull together some content for that too. Maybe not as big and as crazy as we went for July. We need to conserve some resources as we get into November, but yeah, that's also something to look forward to.
CHRISTINE: Yeah. I hope we're gonna have a lot of fun together with the fans going into the home stretch and hopefully we'll create a lot of noise.
PHYLLIS: You know, again we know that the fandom spans a pretty broad spectrum. Either you've been following us since day one and you're totally bought in, or you're a fan of Daredevil but maybe you're not completely on board with the campaign. But regardless, we have the fact that this moratorium ends at the end of November, and whether or not you've bought in before, hey, as fans of Daredevil, as Marvel fans, as fans of just excellent superhero genre TV, let's get together and let's just give it one big last shot to really make our voices heard in a unified way. We will talk about this more, but we do have plans for Save Daredevil past November 29th. An interesting point that came up in our planning with the team is that there's everything that came before November 29th, which we've always prefaced with “Hey, there's really not much Marvel can do, there's not much Disney can say until we hit this point,” but after we hit that point, whatever we do or say could have an impact, and so we are going to continue to make plans for the campaign beyond that. And we're going to hope that 2021 is just better on all counts than 2020. [laughter]
SAM: Yes, please.
CHRISTINE: Yes.
PHYLLIS: Hopefully that's going to be a conversation that we have on its own, too, about what you can expect from the campaign past these three months that we just talked about.
SAM: But that's a funny point that you bring up, because you mentioned 2021. And I have been receiving messages from friends, Daredevil friends and stuff, and they are, like, “Okay, the two [year] mark is up.” I know some people might expect like, “OK, it's going to be the day after the two years we get an announcement.”
PHYLLIS: Nope.
SAM: But that's not gonna happen, especially because it's the end of November. That's really close to the holidays, so Disney people will be busy by then.
PHYLLIS: Yeah. That is a great reminder for the fans, you know, that Kevin Feige will not be jumping out of a cake on November 30th with a Daredevil renewal announcement.
CHRISTINE: No.
PHYLLIS: All we know is that once the moratorium is up, using the characters again is fair game. We will have floated a lot of great ideas by them via the campaign. Obviously, they know how to do their job and they do their job well, and we hope that they take into serious consideration what bringing back Daredevil would mean, not just for the fans, but for Marvel itself. But this stuff takes time. Again, a reminder that everything literally paused for almost six months. You know, we're starting to hear about productions getting back on the ground. You know, the MCU Disney+ shows, I think, are slowly starting to start filming again. Maybe if not this month, next month or October. But these are shows that got delayed from starting this winter and this spring. So, no matter where they are in the process of planning or development, studios will not announce things until there is something concrete to announce. So just temper your expectations.
CHRISTINE: I think another thing to keep in mind in regards to that is that the whole two-year moratorium has been pretty ... I mean, from what we understand about it, it's been pretty strict about what you're allowed and not allowed to do within the two years. And ... the sense we've been getting is that you're barely allowed to even mention the idea of something new within the two-year window. Of course, you could have people sort of sketch something on a napkin. Huh, see what I did there? Napkin!
[chuckling]
CHRISTINE: You could have people sketch something on a napkin, pretty much, or have people toss around ideas in a room. But you're not really allowed to go from there to anything really more concrete than that until after the two years is up. So there would have to be a lot of, I think, other things that are a little bit more concrete that would also need to happen before they could announce anything. And a lot of those steps are gonna also have to wait until the two year moratorium is up. So that's another thing to keep in mind.
PHYLLIS: Yeah. Agreed.
SAM: In short, basically the real fight starts after the two year moratorium. This is when Marvel can actually start doing things, when the voices of the fans are the most important. This is when, like, “OK, what are we going to do with Daredevil?” And that’s when they are going to turn into, “OK, what's the demand for Daredevil? What are the Daredevil fans asking for and what is out there?” So, two years is not the end of the fight, but actually the real beginning.
CHRISTINE: In a sense, this is where we're sort of turning into, like, a regular save-our-show campaign.
PHYLLIS: Yes, two years later.
CHRISTINE: Yeah, this has been like a two-year pre-party.
[chuckling]
PHYLLIS: Oh, boy.
SAM: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: But yeah. So, you know, I think that's probably a great place for us to start wrapping up.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: Obviously, our hope is that we're gonna be able to record a few more of these conversations and go in depth on a few of the topics that we brought up during this conversation. And we hope that you enjoyed what you heard. We'd love to hear your feedback once this actually goes out into the world. You'll probably see this on our YouTube. You might see this in other places where podcasts can be found. So, fingers crossed, we're still kind of working that out. But when you do see us, drop us some comments. Hit us up on social media. We are @SaveDaredevil on Instagram and Facebook and YouTube, but we are @RenewDaredevil on Twitter. So, hopefully we did a good job, guys.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: Yeah, I hope they enjoyed this.
CHRISTINE: Yeah. See you out there on the battlefield.
PHYLLIS: Yes, everybody. Thank you, Fandom Without Fear.
CHRISTINE: Thank you.
SAM: Thank you, everyone.