Episode 2: What the latest changes at Disney mean for Hulu; Debunking the most common arguments against a Daredevil revival
In this episode, we cover recent strategy shifts at Disney, address changes regarding Hulu’s plans to go international plus rumors about adult content on Disney+, and debunk some common arguments against the idea of a Daredevil revival. We also share our personal thoughts on what we’d like to see from a potential season 4.
SHOW NOTES
Christine, Phyllis, and Sam return for a very exciting second episode of #TalkDaredevil, tackling current topics like:
The latest changes at Disney (1:10)
A new strategy for Hulu; Star and the international market (3:30)
Rumors about adult content on Disney+ (9:15)
Why Hulu remains a good fit for Daredevil (13:46)
Dismantling common arguments against a Daredevil revival (17:17)
Argument 1: Disney can’t do a DD Season 4 because the other seasons are on Netflix (18:15)
Argument 2: Netflix owns Charlie Cox's Daredevil (30:15)
Argument 3: Marvel Studios only wants to recast and reboot (34:22)
Have some thoughts or questions you’d like to hear us discuss in an upcoming episode? Leave a comment, reach out on social media, or send us an email at contact@savedaredevil.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving us a rating + review on your podcast platform of choice!
LINKS
Disney Q3 earnings: Streaming a bright spot as parks and cruises plummet
Disney is launching a new Star-branded streaming service internationally
Disney+ May Add Adult Content, Parental Controls (Rumor about Disney+ potentially adding pinlocked adult content)
Disney’s ‘Love, Simon’ Series Moves to Hulu and Gets a New Title (Example of a show greenlit on Disney+ being moved to Hulu due to mature themes)
‘Book Of Enchantment’ Disney+ TV Series Project About Disney Villains Not Going Forward (Example of a series based on Disney IP that was scrapped because it was too ‘dark’)
FULL TRANSCRIPT
INTRO NARRATION: You're listening to #TalkDaredevil, the official podcast of the Save Daredevil campaign.
CHRISTINE: Hi everyone, and welcome to our second episode of #TalkDaredevil, where we will be talking a little bit [about] the current things that are going on and are informing how we look at the media landscape, and also the future for Daredevil, especially looking at some of the things that people are saying about all the reasons this show can't come back. We're gonna take them down one at a time. The “wes” who are here are: again, I’m Christine, and I’m joined by --
PHYLLIS: I'm Phyllis.
SAM: And I’m Sam.
CHRISTINE: Welcome back, guys.
PHYLLIS: It’s good to be back. I'm excited to continue the conversation we had in the last episode.
CHRISTINE: Yeah! Now that it's the second episode, it's like, officially a series of episodes!
PHYLLIS: Yeah, we're doing a thing!
SAM: Yay!
CHRISTINE: Yeah, it's an actual podcast! I guess first we should just talk about the current events and how, basically, maybe how COVID is influencing the landscape right now, maybe looking at Disney in particular.
PHYLLIS: Yeah. So, we spent a lot of the last episode trying to recap the general circumstances of the cancellation and the major players and how that had influenced our campaign overall. But, you know, it's 2020. A lot of stuff has gone on in 2020, and one big thing that we can't overlook is all the things that have been happening at Disney. Disney has not been spared from COVID-19, just as none of us have been. I think in their latest shareholder call for Q3, they have taken a massive hit on, really, almost all segments of their business except for streaming. But besides streaming and raising the subscriber numbers, they've lost money on parks and cruise lines, they've had to pause all TV and film productions, [and] they've had to delay pretty much all of their major film releases. If anyone follows the corporate stuff, you may have noticed in the spring, there was a change of guard with Bob Iger stepping back and Bob Chapek becoming the new head of Disney. And there's also been some pretty big executive transitions. Kevin Mayer is one that we might have brought up before in previous initiatives. He was the person who ran Disney, basically oversaw Disney+ in a lot of the streaming strategies. So there's a lot. There's a lot that has changed. And that's why we, as a campaign, have always tried to remain really nimble and flexible as far as what our strategies have been. Something that we might have wanted to dig into and do 18 months ago, you know, just doesn't feel relevant at this point, and that's something that we touched upon in our last episode too. But I guess the big, maybe more relevant, news that we could really get going in our conversation about is the news from the last call that Hulu would be staying domestic, while Star, which is an international acquisition Disney had made a few years back that was previously called Hotstar, is going to be their international platform. So --
SAM: Yeah, it makes sense to me that they've decided to go with this, although it's a bit funny because they have been saying pretty much from day one, like, “We are taking Hulu international. We are taking Hulu international.” But it makes sense, because in the end, it is all about branding. Star really has international presence, like in India and stuff like that -- in markets they actually want to capture -- that Hulu doesn’t. They don't know Hulu there. So it's not so much about, like, “Oh, we are not taking our Hulu content to these other countries. It’s more like how we brand it.” It's better to use just something that people know there, something that is already in people's minds, than just starting from zero with the Hulu brand.
CHRISTINE: Yeah. Especially for branding issues. From that perspective it really makes sense. And I'll just add, because I'm the only one, I guess, on this recording who doesn't live in the U.S., and I live in a non-Hulu country (I live in Sweden), and we actually don't even have Disney+ yet.
PHYLLIS: Oh, wow!
CHRISTINE: We're getting Disney+, I think, on September 15th.
PHYLLIS: Oh, I didn’t even know that.
CHRISTINE: No. Actually, I think it was supposed to come earlier, but I think COVID kind of messed that up too, so it was pushed back a few months. I think it was supposed to be available in May or something. But anyway, I've been watching a lot of Hulu shows, but I've been watching them on ... They have partnerships with other streamers in other countries, so for me, most of the Hulu shows I get would be on HBO Nordic, which is of course a Nordic subsidiary of HBO. Even some of them, I think even The Handmaid's Tale, I think that actually even made it on way later. It made it onto even Swedish television, like our big, just regular TV. So --
PHYLLIS: Oh. Yeah.
SAM: That’s interesting.
CHRISTINE: Yeah. So there are all kinds … I think a lot of people are concerned unnecessarily that anything that would go on Hulu would be unavailable to people in countries that don't have Hulu as its own thing. So we can hopefully put that worry to rest.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, I think that's a big thing. I know we see on social media, all the time, international fans going, “Oh, but we don't have Hulu. If Daredevil came back on Hulu, that means we won't be able to get it.” But I think it's great that we have your direct experience, Christine, to reassure, like “No. That's not the case.” And to kind of go back to the branding thing, if there's one thing Disney does really well, it's branding, and that's been such an important part of how they run their business, because the Disney brand is king. The Disney brand is a family brand, you know, and so taking advantage of other brands within their portfolio, and of which they have quite a few, [can] help them gain some ground on competitors like Netflix that have already been international for a very long time. COVID has really probably forced a lot of decisions to change, like what Sam was saying.
SAM: Yes.
PHYLLIS: Hulu was supposed to be … Hulu was the plan for international. Hulu is no longer the plan for international because they don't have … everyone's been delayed already for six months. I don't think they can spare the time to come up with a new plan for pushing Hulu international. Now, I personally view it more like Hulu is, indeed, a streaming platform. But Hulu is a network as well.
SAM: Yes.
CHRISTINE: Yeah. Yeah.
PHYLLIS: In the same way that Disney+ is a platform, but Disney+ content is specific to the Disney+ brand. So, if we're looking at the network brands under Disney, you have ABC, you have Freeform, you have FX, you have Fox, you also have Hulu, you also have Disney+. Right? So, looking at it less as a platform thing and more as a network thing, Hulu not going international has no bearing on whether Hulu can develop a revival of an original Daredevil show, right?
CHRISTINE: Right.
PHYLLIS: So that's something that, personally, from my perspective, it was not concerning. And if you're familiar with Hulu, it does mostly have brand awareness in the States, maybe Canada. Actually, Canada doesn't have Hulu either. So I think they're aware of it, but they don't have it, right?
CHRISTINE: Yeah
PHYLLIS: And they do still have third-party content, right, on the platform, so I'm sure that factors into it, too.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: Yes.
PHYLLIS: Since Star would be exclusively Disney brands.
CHRISTINE: Right.
PHYLLIS: I think, Sam, you and I might have had a conversation at some point, too, about maybe what it looks like, like how you can get HBO on Hulu or get HBO on Amazon, right?
SAM: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: Maybe it's more like adding a channel to the Disney+ platform, rather than --
SAM: Oh, you mean for the adult content?
PHYLLIS: Yeah, like how that would look like if --
SAM: Oh, yeah, because we had some rumors regarding maybe Disney adding adult content to Disney+?
PHYLLIS: Yes.
SAM: We were discussing that
PHYLLIS: Yes.
SAM: because people were getting very excited about this, and I think the two of us don't think it means what many people think.
PHYLLIS: Yeah.
SAM: What it means [is] basically, if you have Hulu here, you can add to it, like Starz, and you can add HBO, and you can add a lot of other channels. That's something they give you. Like, I could watch, I don't know, John Oliver or something like that on my Hulu, which is crazy.
PHYLLIS: Yeah. Yeah.
SAM: And we were thinking what this means is probably they are going to give people access to their other brands that have adult content through the Disney+ platform so that you can just open Disney+, [and] you have a pin code, and then you can just access all the catalog. But that doesn't really necessarily mean, like, oh this series that is an adult series is going to be a Disney+ original. It's probably going to be an FX original or a Hulu original or something like that, and you will just have access to it through Disney+.
CHRISTINE: This actually ... I don't know how this is going to look if this is what they're going to do. I mean, it makes sense for them to bundle things, but it just reminds me of … A lot of streaming channels actually have, like, a kids’ login port where you just choose when you log in, or you choose a user, and then there's a kids’ setting, and that will just take you directly into all the kids’ stuff.
PHYLLIS: Yep.
CHRISTINE: It sounds kind of like that, but the other way around.
PHYLLIS: Yeah.
SAM: I know.
PHYLLIS: Yeah. Yeah, a little bit. I think it's funny because -- well, this really ties back into our conversation about branding -- one of the things I don't think they're going to change about Disney+ is the fact that it's meant to be a family-friendly brand.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: I know some things have changed, obviously. The strategy with Hulu has changed, but I don’t think --
SAM: It doesn’t make sense.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, from a branding perspective, I don't think that will change.
CHRISTINE: Right.
SAM: Yeah. But it doesn't make sense otherwise, because even now you have them [in] the last call saying that they will go with Star International. They’re investing heavy money [in] both Hulu here in the United States and Star internationally, and if they were just going to put everything on Disney+ -- like the adult content on Disney+ -- why would they be investing in these two other things? It doesn't make sense to me.
PHYLLIS: Yeah.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: If these aren’t meant to be adult platforms, they would just shoot them down and focus on Disney+ if that was the plan. It makes more sense they are just trying to merge so that it is more visible, because Disney+ right now is the most popular. It's more popular than Hulu, so they probably just want to make the Hulu content more visible for other people, so that people know, “Oh this is on Hulu right now,” instead of just having to go to the Hulu platform completely, you know. It's a matter of making it convenient, not of rebranding stuff.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, and that's personally been my wish as a user to have everything in one place.
SAM: Same.
PHYLLIS: I understand why it hasn't happened yet because these products don't happen overnight so, understandably, when you're working with existing platforms, it's not going to be an easy job to have them completely integrated. But I would hope that this is on Disney's roadmap to eventually integrate all of these different platform brands into one accessible interface for all of their users.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: So yeah, I would personally love to see it done.
SAM: Same.
CHRISTINE: So, to bring this all back around to that show that we're all fighting to save -- bring back Daredevil -- what does all this mean for Daredevil, and what are we really thinking about why Hulu would be such a perfect home for a Daredevil revival?
PHYLLIS: Yeah. For me, again, it goes back to Hulu -- out of all of its network brands -- just being the best fit for the rating of the show, because it has a broader range of content than, say, something like FX, which I find to be a lot more niche. Disney+, again, to me it's just not going to be the right fit, because it has to adhere to that PG-13 ceiling, and I'm just looking at, historically, over this past year or so, seeing projects get paused or shut down at Disney+ because they were too quote-unquote mature, or they were moved over to Hulu because of ratings. I'm thinking about Love Victor and High Fidelity. So there is a standard that they're trying to maintain at Disney+, and so that's why, for me, that's just never going to be the right fit for a revival of the Daredevil show that we know and love.
SAM: I agree with that actually, because it's not only about the PG-13 etiquette, because PG-13 can mean a lot of things, especially when you're an international platform. Because what is PG-13 here in the United States is not necessarily PG-13 in, let's say, Australia or Japan or something like that. They have different standards and everything like that. It’s more, like, what kind of stories you're trying to tell for this audience, and also the target audience itself, because the target audience for Disney+ is always going to be young adults and kids, you know?
CHRISTINE: Mm-hm.
PHYLLIS: Yes.
SAM: That's going to be the main audience for this. Even if it is something that an adult can enjoy and everything, it's not made with them in mind or anything. And the stories that we were telling in Marvel Netflix were very grounded, very serious. They weren't meant for ... The target audience wasn't this. It wasn't kids and young adults; it was young adults and adults. It was a completely different kind of people and I think those stories fit better on Hulu.
CHRISTINE: Late teens and up.
SAM: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: Mm-hm. For Disney+, even like a Marvel show or Marvel movie on Disney+, or the Star Wars show, The Mandalorian, I think of it as these are things that the whole family can sit down and watch together.
CHRISTINE: Mm-hm.
PHYLLIS: Daredevil was never that.
CHRISTINE: No.
SAM: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: So, I don't know if I want to see what the whole family sitting together on the sofa watching Daredevil on Disney+ would look like. You know what I mean.
CHRISTINE: [laughing] Yeah. Would that be, like, Daredevil Meets The Child or something?
[laughter]
CHRISTINE: We do have one member on our team who would love that, but --
PHYLLIS: Yes. Yeah.
CHRISTINE: Shout out --
PHYLLIS: Shout out to Kacey.
SAM: Aww!
[laughter]
CHRISTINE: That's pretty funny. Oh yeah, thinking back to our first episode, where we were talking about some of the myths around what happened when Daredevil was cancelled ... Of course, one thing we were pointing at then, that again, Disney did not -- I mean Marvel/ Disney did not -- cancel Daredevil to bring Daredevil to Disney+. Because that was such a common talking point at the time.
PHYLLIS: Yeah.
SAM: Oh, yes.
CHRISTINE: Obviously, for all the reasons that you guys have lined out, that's not the case at all. It's got that family-friendly vibe to it that just precludes anything like Daredevil being on there, even less that it would be the plan to do that. But speaking of myths, there are a lot of rumors and opinion pieces and stuff floating around out there about why this is such a doomed campaign as some would have it. So why don't we dig into some of that?
SAM: OK, so there's one that is always like flying around that is, “Oh, Disney won't do a Season 4, because the other seasons are on Netflix. They don't want to reference back to Netflix.” And this is why it is interesting, because it's a bit complex and [has] some points to it, but also it doesn't hold much water. So the thing is, first of all, Netflix is the big player in this case, and it's weird because Disney is such a giant right now, and saying Netflix is the big player sounds a bit wrong, but they are. In the United States, and in the world, they have more subscribers than Disney. Disney wishes Disney+ had that many.
PHYLLIS: They're playing catch up.
SAM: Completely.
PHYLLIS: Everybody’s playing catch up to Netflix right now.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: Yes, and Netflix is the big fish. So if anybody has to be worried about sending subscribers one way, it is Netflix, not Disney. So we start with that. But another thing is -- right now, especially in the United States -- you will have three different kind of Disney subscribers: it's people that never subscribed to Netflix and have Disney+; people that dropped Netflix for Disney+; and people that subscribe to both, as [in] my case or something like that. And let's be honest, people that dropped Netflix or subscribe to both are not going to care and drop Disney because they have Season 4 of Daredevil there. It's not going to happen like, “Mm, they don't have Season 1 and 3. Let me drop my subscription from Disney+ and go watch that.” No. What they're going to do is, [they’re] going to watch Seasons 1 to 3 and then go back to Disney+. I don't know if you're going to just do a month of Netflix or even just pirate it. That's what is going to happen. And if you have never subscribed to Netflix and are subscribing to Disney, chances that you're going to drop Disney for Netflix are pretty much close to zero. I don't see that happening. Like, why? I don't see why Disney will have to be worried about referencing to Netflix. On the contrary, they will want to be capturing the people that are on Netflix and not on Disney+ that were watching these shows.
PHYLLIS: And that's the way it's weighted right now is that more people are subscribed to Netflix than they are to Disney+. Disney+ has an opportunity. Not Disney+, specifically, but Disney has an opportunity to grab subscribers, to add to their subscriber base [more] than the other way around.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: Yes.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: So it will be this: Netflix might be, like, “Oh, we have to drop this because we are referencing to Disney+ and sending people that way, because they have the new seasons.” If anything it will be that, not the other way around.
CHRISTINE: But speaking of Season 4, maybe we should also do a take on what exactly that would mean, because it would likely be very difficult to continue with the show exactly where it left off, and with the Season 4 that they had planned out, especially now that we've become privy to some of the things that would be in that Season 4. And I also suspect that because it was written under different contracts and stuff, that they would have to pivot a bit and do something else, and maybe something that's sort of what I'd like to call a soft reboot. One thing we've been talking about is how while Daredevil did end in -- definitely less of a cliffhanger than some of the other shows -- it did still end in a new beginnings kind of place, which means that it's a kind of ending that really lends itself to doing a time lapse, like a skip to the future, where you can produce a season that really speaks to everyone who's seen everything that came before, but where you would still invite in new viewers because you would be kind of beginning in a new place where Matt and the team are back together. So I see a lot of potential actually in how Daredevil ended that I think would make it a really good stepping off platform for Disney to do something that's new and old at the same time.
SAM: Mm-hm.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, I agree. And one thought that also comes to mind about this whole, “Oh, we can't send people to our competitor,” or “We can't reference anything that's already on Netflix,” I think that’s a bit of a weird interpretation for me, because that assumes that people's loyalties are to platforms rather than the Marvel IP itself.
CHRISTINE: Mm-hm.
SAM: Mm-hm.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: And the Daredevil show is not the first live-action Daredevil we've had these last 20 years, right? There have been other iterations. There was the movie. Maybe this is more ... You can draw maybe a fuller comparison if you talk about all the iterations of Spider-man, right? But the fact of the matter is if Disney were to create a new season of Daredevil, and this encourages people to look up the first three seasons of Daredevil that still live on Netflix, people will come back to watch the new season of Daredevil on whichever platform Disney has put it on because they love Daredevil.
SAM: Yes.
CHRISTINE: Right.
PHYLLIS: They don't love Netflix. They love the IP. They love the character, and they will look for content around that character wherever they can find it. So to me, saying, “Oh, well we can't reference that. We can't have that. They're going to send people that way,” it just doesn’t ring true to me. I guess I understand why people say that, but these are Marvel fans we're talking about.
SAM: Yep.
PHYLLIS: And Marvel fans will seek out Marvel wherever they can find it. I don't think Daredevil is an exception to that, and I don't think having three exceptional seasons makes that any different. And in the worst case scenario for us, that they completely reboot and recast, if people liked that too, guess what they're going to do? They're going to look for the previous seasons of Daredevil.
CHRISTINE: Yep.
SAM: Yes.
CHRISTINE: Exactly.
PHYLLIS: So to me it's like, okay, there's really no scenario in which someone likes the new Daredevil content that doesn't seek out the old Daredevil content.
CHRISTINE: Right.
SAM: Yep.
PHYLLIS: The important thing, though, is where they will be able to find more of it. And they will not be able to find more of it on Netflix. They will find more of it with Disney, hopefully on Hulu.
SAM: Yeah. And that's a complete opportunity for Disney, too, because that means while Netflix has the shows there, there's people being exposed to Daredevil -- which is a Disney IP -- outside of the Disney platforms. So, holding Daredevil right now is more beneficial for Disney than it is for Netflix, because it's likely not bringing the new subscribers, but it's going to expose people to a Disney IP.
PHYLLIS: Mm-hm.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: Absolutely. You know, technically, Netflix would kind of be advertising for Disney. They really still are. There's a reason why they canceled it, because they likely couldn't get more subscribers off those shows. But you know who's in position to get more subscribers off those shows? Disney.
SAM: Disney. Yep.
CHRISTINE: Exactly. And I think some of the suggestions that Disney (or Marvel/Disney; they're all the same thing) wouldn't want to make more Daredevil in whatever package you might think of -- of course we prefer a particular package -- but either way it's a very valuable IP for them. Obviously this show was super popular. All the critics loved it. It had all of that. And for them to either, number one, not do anything with it when they can doesn't make sense. And for them to, as some people are saying, “OK, so make a new one with new actors and new everything so that people won't go back to Netflix.” But as you said, people probably still will because people who are new to the character will then be like, “Oh, there's this other version of Daredevil out there that's supposedly better.” Because come on, how are they gonna make anything else that's better? They're not. So, the whole thing about just not touching it just because it's on Netflix, it's like that expression “cut off your nose to spite your face,” because that's what they're suggesting that Disney do, which doesn't sound like Disney. We don't want to put an explicit rating on this show, so I'm not going to say the full F-word, but I would kind of like to dare Disney to just do a little “F you” to Netflix and be, “Hey, this is our IP. We're going to rock it. We don’t care if the first three seasons are on your platform because we're Disney.”
SAM: And we're proof of what you were saying, that people will always go back to watch the previous stuff, because we had a lot of new people reading the comics just because they loved the show and there’s people --
PHYLLIS: That was totally me.
SAM: Yeah.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: And that was me too. I wasn’t reading it. I was reading Avengers and other stuff, but I wasn't reading Daredevil until I really liked the show. And we also have some people that hadn't watched the movie, and we watched them.
CHRISTINE: Yeah. [laughs]
SAM: Everybody went back to watch the movie, even some of them [who] felt like it was really bad or something. But they went back.
PHYLLIS: They still watched it!
SAM: Yes! People are going to do it.
PHYLLIS: That's the draw of the character.
SAM: Yeah!
CHRISTINE: I’ve even heard more talk about the very first movie starring Daredevil in it: The Trial of the Incredible Hulk, which was this made-for-TV movie in the late 80s, I think. Of course, it was a Hulk movie that had Daredevil in it. I've watched that because I'm a completist and everything, but I've even seen more talk about that since
PHYLLIS: Yeah, totally.
CHRISTINE: The television show came than I had in years prior.
PHYLLIS: Yeah.
CHRISTINE: So of course, if you have anything good Daredevil out there it's gonna raise awareness and interest in everything else. It's Daredevil. It's no mystery.
SAM: So in the end, if Disney doesn't want people going to Netflix to watch this thing, it’s not about casting Charlie again or doing a Season 4. What they have to do is, in the end, just buy the rights back from Netflix and bring that on a Disney platform. If they really wanted to do that, that's the solution. Nothing else will stop people from going back and watching those shows on Netflix.
PHYLLIS: But you know, kind of as an aside, Disney has done that before. Didn’t they do that with Star Wars and Clone Wars and all that stuff?
SAM: And everything. Like, there's older movies.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: Yep.
CHRISTINE: All the movies too. So, what about that other argument about how this is all impossible and as it pertains to the actors, that Netflix supposedly owns them according to some people?
SAM: Well, we have met a lot of the actors through the campaign, and I'm yet to hear anybody say anything about this. Not Geof when we met him, not any of the other ones. Not even when we met Joe Quesada. Nobody has mentioned this, so if this was really a thing, I would personally think that somebody will have mentioned it along the way, because they love talking about all the stuff, even if they don't tell you the specifics.
PHYLLIS: To me, it feels really like it's something that's gotten mixed up with the whole rights conversation in general and the moratorium, because once the show got cancelled, they were released from their contracts with Netflix. Charlie is not contractually obligated to Netflix anymore. So the concept that Netflix owns Charlie as Daredevil doesn't make any sense to me. The only thing that makes sense to me is that somehow this is getting conflated with the accurate situation, which is that Netflix temporarily maintains control over the character rights for these two years, right?
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: For the distribution. The shows are remaining on Netflix even after the two years.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, the shows will remain on Netflix for over the two years, and then the character rights, which is what the moratorium is about, that's the only place where I can see some overlap with the rumor that Netflix owns the actors as the characters. But, again, like you guys said, we have met so many people that have worked on these shows, and if that was an actual obstacle to bring it back, someone would have said something. There's never been any conversation about the actors not legally being able to reprise their characters from the show. It's always just been about whether Marvel wants to bring it back, and whether the timing can line up for these projects. So, again, when I hear that, I’m kind of like, I don't know if you know what you're saying.
CHRISTINE: Right. I mean, I can't even imagine what a contract like that would look like, because it would be such a weird situation where you don't own the IP, you don't actually physically own the actors. Yeah, you can have contractual ties to someone for a limited period of time, but it's not like some kind of feudal society where you own them for life. [laughter]
CHRISTINE: That would be, like, “No! If you ever cast this character again, this actor could not …” Who would even … I don't know how savvy the actors themselves are, but it is just such a weird take on it. And I think logistical challenges are a bigger issue than anything contractual at this point.
PHYLLIS: Yeah.
SAM: Mm-hm.
CHRISTINE: But I think even the logistics, that would be one … Speaking of COVID again, I think COVID is awful. [I’d] just like [to] put that in there. Otherwise it’s gonna be like, “Hey, they said COVID was good.” No. COVID is awful in almost every single way, but I do think if there's any sort of slight silver lining here, it might be that COVID … You know, with Disney not making as much anymore, nor any other studios, I think it would be easier for them to maybe reach out for a property that they know is successful, and they could go into production fast, and also because, sadly, nobody or hardly anyone is working. It would make actors and crew and stuff more available than [they] would be in a normal circumstance. But, COVID is still a bad thing. Just need to get that out there.
PHYLLIS: There's another kind of myth, argument, what have you, that does get floated around from time to time that people won't care if Daredevil gets recast or rebooted for Disney+. Or, kind of along the same lines, that Feige won't allow for anything to be developed that he did not have a direct hand in. So the implication is that they need to start from square one on Daredevil because Feige won't have it otherwise. What do we think about that?
CHRISTINE: Well, you know, I don't know Feige personally but it just --
PHYLLIS: [sarcastic tone] Oh, you don’t?
[laughter]
CHRISTINE: No! I know everyone thinks we're so connected, but no! [laughs] It just sounds like ... I mean, of course it's all this talk about different power struggles over at various entertainment companies, but at the end of the day, for companies, the bottom line ... I'm sorry, that's gonna trump Feige even though I don't really necessarily think that he would be against it. So I don't know.
SAM: I don't agree with that [argument] actually. Because the thing is, people love this interpretation, the Marvel fans did. Yeah, maybe the wider MCU fandom wouldn't care. I don’t know. I don't know if they watched Daredevil. I'm not sure everybody did. Of course not. But the Daredevil fans, they love him, and you can go to any Daredevil YouTube video, any daredevil forum, and you will find prizes about Charlie and this cast and what they did. This is peak Daredevil. This is what people wanted. This is what people loved. And like Christine said, the bottom line is that these are companies. These are bigger than one person, any one person, even somebody like Feige. So I think that Disney, especially now, with COVID and everything, they will want to capitalize on anything they can.
PHYLLIS: Mm-hm.
SAM: And the fact remains that this is a beloved interpretation. This is very popular and they will want to try to go with the safe bet. They will want to try to do something similar. Regardless [of] whether … Even if they reboot this completely (I don't think, personally, they will or they need to, but even if they did), I'm sure they will be getting influence from the show, because people liked it. And you can see that with, for example, Batman. The new Batman.
PHYLLIS: Oh my gosh. Yes.
SAM: [It] is taking a lot of vibes from Daredevil. It’s because also DC knows that this was very popular, that this is something that the comics fans liked, and this is something they are coming for. So, even DC’s taking notes. I don't see why Marvel would just ditch this because one person doesn't want to do it or something like that. I'm sorry, but that's not how companies are run.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: Yeah, it doesn't make any sense to me. And you bring up a great point about The Batman, because in the last two major promotional pushes, which was when they released that first look at that picture of him all in red, and then the trailer, I swear all the chatter -- granted my timeline is biased -- but I saw so much chatter about, “Oh my gosh, it's Daredevil! It's Daredevil! It's Daredevil!” And you know, the thing is that all the comparisons between this particular DC project to Marvel have been specifically about Charlie Cox and Marvel's Daredevil. There have been no counter-references to MCU properties or Marvel Studios films because that was it. That was the direct comparison. And to me, all that tells me is that the appetite and the interest, all of that is still is still there, and I think it's very telling that it feels like we're in this new phase of superhero genre shows and films in general, which have all trended much more mature, much more grounded, and Marvel is conspicuously the one player that's not in that game right now.
SAM: I know.
PHYLLIS: Because I look at DC and what they're doing, I look at shows like The Boys, I look at shows like Umbrella Academy. Everyone is capitalizing on that except for Marvel. So to me, it's a little bit like … It’s a little bit of a gimme, you know? And I'm not saying that there's no room to stretch what's been done on the show. I would love for some ideal scenario to be: we get the show back, we get the show at the rating we want, with the type of storytelling we want and the character development we want, but also have Charlie's Daredevil make everyone's dreams come true and show up in the Spiderman movie, right? I think there is certainly a world where those can coexist. you know?
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: Mm-hm.
PHYLLIS: I just think it's it would be really unfortunate if there was some ego involved in all of this that wouldn't allow Feige to humor the idea of, “Oh, why don't we bring back this really beloved version of this super-popular character and do something really easy and make the fans really happy?” I mean I don't know Marvel but --
CHRISTINE: Especially at the time where they're putting out these MCU tie-in or tied-in mini series on Disney+. I mean, if they're going to make the most of television as a medium, I just can't imagine that he would be so staunch like, “No, it's all gonna be my stuff. All of it has to be my toys!” He’s a grown-up and he's done a lot of great things for the MCU. He should know great content when he sees it. No, I just don't see it. And especially like you said, it's not just one person. This is a company with a lot of people involved, and even if you do have someone who is very critical to the success of one department, or one part of a company, like with the MCU … Even so, I mean, he can't do everything, especially now that they have more content coming out. The guy’s got to sleep, you know? Maybe somebody else could develop a Daredevil series.
PHYLLIS: Obviously, like you said, Feige’s done a lot of crazy-good stuff. Let's also acknowledge that a lot of his plans -- his very well-laid plans -- have been very much upended this year. I don't know what is ... I have to imagine things will have to change. So, maybe if there was a point where he was very inflexible about this stuff, he might not be that way after the dust settles on 2020. You know what I mean?
CHRISTINE: Right. Yeah.
SAM: And there's already things about that. You actually see glimpses of this, because Disney has changed a lot in this year. They pushed the schedule for the Marvel TV shows. They are releasing this month Mulan on Disney+. They are doing a lot of stuff that a couple months back, before this whole mess, people would be like, “Why? Why would Disney do this?” But things have changed. So it's not only [about] if they [would] want to do it; circumstances are forcing people to just be more flexible, and that's very important for success. And I feel like, even if maybe they wouldn't consider that eight months ago, right now, in this climate, I think they will be considering a lot of stuff they wouldn't have back then. But also, circling back to the reboot versus the soft reboot, Season 4 and all of that, one thing that makes me also believe that maybe we might see a soft reboot coming is [because] Season 4 has some difficulties to do with the scripts being owned by Netflix (the one that they were going to do; the one that Erik Oleson planned already). But also since -- you said it -- the end of Season 3 left [off] in a good place for doing a soft-ish reboot, you can actually take advantage of that for Kevin Feige molding this character, this version of the character, into something he wants more. Because you have a new start. It doesn't have to be the exact same as they were going to do it on Netflix. It can be something that is more inclusive of what Kevin Feige’s vision of Daredevil is going to be into the MCU, into the wider MCU, his MCU. And having a soft reboot can help a lot with that, like doing the best of both worlds kind of thing, so they don't have to do a complete reboot for making it his own version too.
PHYLLIS: Yeah. And you know, even within the MCU, it's absolutely not unheard of for someone to inherit casting of a character. In retrospect, this is sad to bring up Chadwick Boseman, but he was one of the prime examples that he was cast in Civil War and he was brought over to Black Panther and did an incredible job. I don't see a situation where the casting of Charlie by someone else would be used against him. I think he's more than proven himself in the three seasons of the show that he put together and what everyone has said about working with him, all the positive things. Why wouldn't you want to go with someone like him? Just as a side note.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
SAM: And we talk about the actors themselves being like a limited resource, because, you know, there's just so many actors, and just so many of them that are actually really high-quality and [tick] all the check marks that Marvel will be looking for in a specific character. So, if they are planning to do, let's say, 10 more years or 20 more years of MCU or something like that, they also have to be mindful of like who they are casting for what, because eventually they are going to run out of good people or something, people they want to work with. So this is someone that is loved, that has already proved himself to be an excellent Daredevil, and he comes with all the good marks of being an excellent actor. So why would Marvel reject that?
PHYLLIS: Mm-hm. I agree.
CHRISTINE: Yeah.
PHYLLIS: Obviously, I agree. But, I agree. [chuckles]
CHRISTINE: Yeah. Maybe that agreement is a good point to end this discussion on.
PHYLLIS: Yeah. Yes.
CHRISTINE: We're all in agreement and we can just happily go our separate ways until we meet up again.
[chuckling]
PHYLLIS: So yeah. We hope that you enjoyed listening to us talk about all of this. You know, these are the kind of things we nerd out about privately. So it's sort of fun to bring that conversation out into the open a little bit. Presumably, this will go up somewhere that you'll be able to listen or you'll be able to listen to it on our YouTube channel, and hopefully you'll be able to find it where you might find your other podcasts. If you want to learn more about us, you can always find us on social media: we are at @SaveDaredevil on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube, and we're at @RenewDaredevil on Twitter. Or, just in general, you can always go to SaveDaredevil.com and find out more about what we're currently up to.
CHRISTINE: Right, and also maybe if you have any questions for us, or if there's any follow-up questions to this or general topics you want us to tackle, you could let us know.
PHYLLIS: Yeah.
SAM: Yeah, we would love that.
PHYLLIS: All right. Thanks guys!
CHRISTINE: Thank you.
SAM: Bye.
CLOSING NARRATION: Thank you for listening to #TalkDaredevil, the official podcast of the Save Daredevil campaign. For more information on Save Daredevil, please visit our website at SaveDaredevil.com. Remember: Murdocks always get back up!